Transformers Mosaic: "The 1101"

Optimus' mom?

Prima's a dude.

Hey Sabrblade... I think you accidentally pasted one of the end-scene pics from the Dark Crystal in with all the comic pages.

I am always a fan of binary.

Sabrblade wrote:Prima's a dude.

Maybe this Prima is from a new continuity?

gothsaurus wrote:Hey Sabrblade... I think you accidentally pasted one of the end-scene pics from the Dark Crystal in with all the comic pages.

Come again?

F Prime wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Prima's a dude.

Maybe this Prima is from a new continuity?

Prima's a Multiversal Singularity: the same person in all worlds.

Sorry for the confusion. Just knocking on the "generic alien" designs of the post movie bots. The white ghostly design of Prima looks like the end scene of the Dark Crystal.

But back to topic....

the prima in this story can't be the same one from all the other worlds for a couple reasons. the first one's obvious; here, prima's female. secondly, who says there can't be more than one transformer with the same name? and lastly, the statement below puts it all into prospective.

It should be noted that while this project has been recognized by IDW Publishing and Hasbro, none of the works presented have been commissioned or solicited by either company. The stories are not official canon, except where noted. These stories are the result of Transformers enthusiasts taking the time out of their busy days to contribute to a universe they love. No one has been paid for the production of these stories.

just an observation.

Jack Hallows wrote:the prima in this story can't be the same one from all the other worlds for a couple reasons. the first one's obvious; here, prima's female.

Does a single multiversal entity need to have consistent gender among the multiverses?

Clearly, we need a multiversal government grant to seriously investigate this.

F Prime wrote:

Jack Hallows wrote:the prima in this story can't be the same one from all the other worlds for a couple reasons. the first one's obvious; here, prima's female.

Does a single multiversal entity need to have consistent gender among the multiverses?

Clearly, we need a multiversal government grant to seriously investigate this.

Then I nominate MYSELF as its new leader!

Seeing how wildly varied Prima's appearances are (in fact we seem to be totally OK with this one looking near identical to Optimus), I don't see how being 'female' in a race where genders are vague at best is sacrilegious. Plus, "Prima" sounds more of a feminine name than male/androgynous.

I'm interested in where this story's going, though I think there are too many "prime" names (Primus sent Primon to find the Prime Primus; that's just Prime).

Yeah, I DO really like the notion that one of the thirteen is a female.

Jack Hallows wrote:secondly, who says there can't be more than one transformer with the same name?

Multiversal Singularities are a unique case in which there is only one of each.

F Prime wrote:

Jack Hallows wrote:the prima in this story can't be the same one from all the other worlds for a couple reasons. the first one's obvious; here, prima's female.

Does a single multiversal entity need to have consistent gender among the multiverses?

Yes.

Noideaforaname wrote:Seeing how wildly varied Prima's appearances are (in fact we seem to be totally OK with this one looking near identical to Optimus), I don't see how being 'female' in a race where genders are vague at best is sacrilegious. Plus, "Prima" sounds more of a feminine name than male/androgynous.

New packaging, same product.

gothsaurus wrote:Yeah, I DO really like the notion that one of the thirteen is a female.

but there already is a female 13er: Solus Prime. And she's the only female because she represents the original fembot, like how Nexus Prime is the original combiner.

Here is how Multiversal Singularites (in particular The Fallen) work:
"The complex nature of the multiverse demands much from singular creatures like the Fallen, Primus, Unicron, the 13, etc. These beings are of a fundamentally different nature from regular individuals, who are repeated endlessly throughout the infinite variation of creation. They must be designed or evolved to deal with certain situations that would drive lesser beings mad.

First of all, time flows differently from dimension to dimension. By necessity, this makes it possible for creatures like the Fallen to appear to exist in two places at the same time. Second, whole new universes are spawned every moment by the resolution of quantum uncertainty. Most of these universes are dead ends that exist for only a few seconds or minutes at most, and encompass only a few critical moments. Therefore, at certain critical junctures, the Fallen becomes a quantum event, experiencing two or more possible outcomes at once, until one of those outcomes proves to be a dead end and collapses. The Fallen then reverts back to the "real" universe. Every story has dozens or hundreds of endings we never see. But the Fallen sees them.

One of the side effects of the Fallen's quantum nature is that his appearance changes slightly from dimension to dimension, based on the expectations of others, and the unique history he has (or has not) established in a particular dimension. He is also bound by the "rules" (gravity, magnetism, etc.) of any dimension in which appears – many of which rules he may have actually helped shape when the multiverse was young. So if time flows backwards in a certain dimension, he is bound to live and experience – forgetting as he goes along – everything backwards.

Smart and savvy dimensional travelers spend time in reverse timescale dimensions, slow-time dimensions, or dimensions in which time does not move at all. This ensures that even if they are "killed," they continue to exist. As you can see, the idea of sequential experience as you and I understand it is pretty meaningless to guys like the Fallen. He does experience all these things, but his mind operates on a higher order so all of this stuff totally makes sense to him."

Sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:Does a single multiversal entity need to have consistent gender among the multiverses?

Yes.

As a guy with a phd in math I get a serious nerd-on when I see wave functions and quantum singularities, but I am not convinced that the TFWiki explanation of multiversal entities holds up to scrutiny...unless you ignore certain continuities.

Unicron is a multiversal entity...so, he is the same in all realities. But in some of the realities (that presented in Call of the Primitives, for example) he is far from an eternal, multiversal being. Compare that with Furman's "God of Darkness" idea and you get two very different beings. If one Unicron can be created by Tornedron and the other is an eternal god of darkness I would have no problem with a third being female. Same for Prima.

I guess one could argue that Call of the Primitives was an inaccurate representation of the origin of Unicron, but that is pushing the bounds and would seem to be shoehorning cannon to fit an ideal.

Also, in the comics the Unicron who sent Hook, Line, and Sinker after Galvatron explicitly claims to be a "different" Unicron than the Unicron Galvratron knew from the future. Although I would not put it past Unicron to lie, this seems to be at odds with the notion of multiversality.

On the TFWiki page regarding Multiversal beings is this quote from Hasbro: "The official story of the original 13 and specifically The Fallen has not been explored in the modern continuity that Transformers War for Cybertron, Exodus, and Prime are a part of. Anything you know from past generations of the brand may or may not be factual in the new continuity. Going forward in the modern continuity there is 1 Fallen."

If anything we know may or may not be true in the new continuity it doesn't seem they are following hard-and-fast rules regarding multiversal beings.

Hopefully my replies are coming across as genuine and not argumentative. This is a fantastically fun conversation!

F Prime wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:Does a single multiversal entity need to have consistent gender among the multiverses?

Yes.

As a guy with a phd in math I get a serious nerd-on when I see wave functions and quantum singularities, but I am not convinced that the TFWiki explanation of multiversal entities holds up to scrutiny...unless you ignore certain continuities.

One's gender is an important aspect of who a person is. Since these are the same persons in all worlds, the gender factor would remain constant, otherwise, they wouldn't be the same persons.

F Prime wrote:Unicron is a multiversal entity...so, he is the same in all realities. But in some of the realities (that presented in Call of the Primitives, for example) he is far from an eternal, multiversal being. Compare that with Furman's "God of Darkness" idea and you get two very different beings. If one Unicron can be created by Tornedron and the other is an eternal god of darkness I would have no problem with a third being female. Same for Prima.

Tornedron didn't build Unicron, Primacron did.

Though, it would not surprise me if, somewhere down the line, this contradiction is explained in some manner. Like, if Primacron only built his body, but not his lifeforce, not knowing what he was working on was really a dark god.

F Prime wrote:I guess one could argue that Call of the Primitives was an inaccurate representation of the origin of Unicron, but that is pushing the bounds and would seem to be shoehorning cannon to fit an ideal.

I'd rather them just say like above, that we didn't get the full extent of the story from Primacron's assistant and were just told what he knew from his perspective.

F Prime wrote:Also, in the comics the Unicron who sent Hook, Line, and Sinker after Galvatron explicitly claims to be a "different" Unicron than the Unicron Galvratron knew from the future. Although I would not put it past Unicron to lie, this seems to be at odds with the notion of multiversality.

Well, this notion of his being a single being did indeed come later and made retroactively. Though, that line of his doesn't completely defy his signle being status per se. I mean, while he could have very well been lying, it is indeed true that the Unicron of Galvatron's future wasn't exactly same as Unicron of 1990, having undergone different events and all. Think of it as how War Within The Fallen is very different from ROTF The Fallen (though they still maintain the same personas), yet they're still the same being. Due to their nature, they are able to contradict themselves like it's natural, yet certain regards to their personas remain the same.

F Prime wrote:On the TFWiki page regarding Multiversal beings is this quote from Hasbro: "The official story of the original 13 and specifically The Fallen has not been explored in the modern continuity that Transformers War for Cybertron, Exodus, and Prime are a part of. Anything you know from past generations of the brand may or may not be factual in the new continuity. Going forward in the modern continuity there is 1 Fallen."

If anything we know may or may not be true in the new continuity it doesn't seem they are following hard-and-fast rules regarding multiversal beings.

Though, this mosaic right here doesn't have to do with the Aligned continuity.

F Prime wrote:Hopefully my replies are coming across as genuine and not argumentative. This is a fantastically fun conversation!

Indeed.

Sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:Does a single multiversal entity need to have consistent gender among the multiverses?

Yes.

As a guy with a phd in math I get a serious nerd-on when I see wave functions and quantum singularities, but I am not convinced that the TFWiki explanation of multiversal entities holds up to scrutiny...unless you ignore certain continuities.

One's gender is an important aspect of who a person is. Since these are the same persons in all worlds, the gender factor would remain constant, otherwise, they wouldn't be the same persons.

I don't know..I have no idea how important gender is to a multiversal robotic being.

sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:Unicron is a multiversal entity...so, he is the same in all realities. But in some of the realities (that presented in Call of the Primitives, for example) he is far from an eternal, multiversal being. Compare that with Furman's "God of Darkness" idea and you get two very different beings. If one Unicron can be created by Tornedron and the other is an eternal god of darkness I would have no problem with a third being female. Same for Prima.

Tornedron didn't build Unicron, Primacron did.

Damn. That will teach me to write extensive replies without wiki'ing all details. I will take a small bit of satisfaction in the fact that I spelt d00d's name correctly.

sabrblade wrote: Though, it would not surprise me if, somewhere down the line, this contradiction is explained in some manner. Like, if Primacron only built his body, but not his lifeforce, not knowing what he was working on was really a dark god.

I have never heard/read/found an explanation. (I mean, we all know the real explanation, this sh*t was made up after the fact, but in canon I know of nothing.) However, even if this explanation was true having your body constructed around you seems to imply that the crux of your identity is non-corporeal. I am still not convinced that we can say anything about how important gender/sex is to a non-corporeal entity.

sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:On the TFWiki page regarding Multiversal beings is this quote from Hasbro: "The official story of the original 13 and specifically The Fallen has not been explored in the modern continuity that Transformers War for Cybertron, Exodus, and Prime are a part of. Anything you know from past generations of the brand may or may not be factual in the new continuity. Going forward in the modern continuity there is 1 Fallen."

If anything we know may or may not be true in the new continuity it doesn't seem they are following hard-and-fast rules regarding multiversal beings.

Though, this mosaic right here doesn't have to do with the Aligned continuity.

Well, we have no idea which continuity this Mosaic falls in. I thought that was the point of the multiversal bit. If the Aligned continuity can use multiversal beings in new ways without breaking their multiversality why can't this Mosaic?

F Prime wrote:I don't know..I have no idea how important gender is to a multiversal robotic being.

Think of them as persons. One's gender helps define one's persona. Change that, and the persona is also changed.

F Prime wrote:I have never heard/read/found an explanation. (I mean, we all know the real explanation, this sh*t was made up after the fact, but in canon I know of nothing.) However, even if this explanation was true having your body constructed around you seems to imply that the crux of your identity is non-corporeal. I am still not convinced that we can say anything about how important gender/sex is to a non-corporeal entity.

As of now, there is no real explanation, which is why I was speaking hypothetically. Though, I wouldn't really say that his lifeforce is non-corporeal. Personality components of the G1 bots were tangible objects. Maybe Primacron could have used the one that belonged to Unicron as his first building block.

F Prime wrote:Well, we have no idea which continuity this Mosaic falls in. I thought that was the point of the multiversal bit. If the Aligned continuity can use multiversal beings in new ways without breaking their multiversality why can't this Mosaic?

I assumed it was a Primax one, due to the art style and G1-esque design of these characters. The reason the Aligned continuity can bend the rules of the multiverse is becuase it resides outside the known multiverse.

Physically, I don't see how Transformers have true 'sexes.' They don't seem to reproduce in any fashion similar to ours, nor do any... features function in such a manner.
Mentally, I'm not sure how significant of a difference any gender would have on a character's persona. In fact, I'd imagine Prima's origin would have a stronger influence, and he's been a Quintesson product, a child of Primus, and a creation of the Allspark.

Not to mention an unofficial work using artistic license...

Sabrblade wrote:

F Prime wrote:I don't know..I have no idea how important gender is to a multiversal robotic being.

Think of them as persons. One's gender helps define one's persona. Change that, and the persona is also changed.

We are speaking in terms we understand; human terms. I don't think we can even guess regarding the importance of sex (whatever that even really means here) to someone like Prima. The only consistent aspect to being female for a Transformer is having a female voice actor (if a toon) and being referred to as "she". Beyond that we don't know anything about the differences across the multiverse. Sure, different individual universes have put things forward, but I am talking about the multiverse. Assuming that changing sex changes persona seems to be just that; an assumption. Not sure we really know.

To be specific, although I think I first used the term gender, we aren't really talking about gender at all...Prima's sex was changed to female in the Mosaic, and sex does not equal gender. Sex is a biological trait (typically male or female) while gender is a social construct determined by how we self-identify. If defined this way (i.e. not using biological gender) sex can be changed much easier than one's gender. Maybe the same is true for Multiversal robots?

Sabrblade wrote:I wouldn't really say that his lifeforce is non-corporeal. Personality components of the G1 bots were tangible objects. Maybe Primacron could have used the one that belonged to Unicron as his first building block.

The nature of the personality components of the G1 bots would seem to have little/nothing to do with Unicron's personality components. In the Marvel-verse Unicron was a god of darkness who existed before our known reality, not a transformer. The physical Unicron we know and love in that reality is just the non-physical "Unicron" trapped in a metal rock. If that metal rock is now Unicron that seems to imply that "Unicron" was defined by his astral self.

F Prime wrote:Well, we have no idea which continuity this Mosaic falls in. I thought that was the point of the multiversal bit. If the Aligned continuity can use multiversal beings in new ways without breaking their multiversality why can't this Mosaic?

Sabrblade wrote:I assumed it was a Primax one, due to the art style and G1-esque design of these characters. The reason the Aligned continuity can bend the rules of the multiverse is becuase it resides outside the known multiverse.

Yup, this is kinda my point...we have to assume Primax...we don't really know where this is taking place and a female Prima could work.

This was my comment way back in my very first post about this.

And even if we assume Primax I am still not convinced that sex counts as much more than a "physical alteration" (which is allowed for multiversal entities) in the Transformers case. I don't believe the differences have ever been well-defined across the multiverse.

Now I want to major in Sociology with a minor in G1 Gender Studies.