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Next: Di Bonaventura comes out and say the opposite. Yawn.

I discarded Bay's 4 & 5 from memory already minutes after their end credits. Don't even care to own them on media or digitally.

I never cared to argue with anyone whether BBM/ROTB is or is not a reboot. They SHOULD have been, and still COULD have been in my head and that's it, anyone else can consider different and I respect that. Caple Jr. should capitalize on the good will of the BBM & ROTB fans and move the next live-action movies further away from Bayverse and start telling stories in new coherent timeline. Don't jump all over the place because "such & such concepts are cool, let bend it in."

Personally I don't mind Bay designs for the Decepticons & Terrorcons factions (still need more colors). But the Autobots should continue to look like the BBM Cybertron ones or more humanoid, as being the "good guys" and thus need the connections with human, that's the way to go. Pay hommage to Bay & G1 designs to please most fans, but scrap the plot links to Bay is the smart move imo.

bluecatcinema wrote:

Slashercon wrote:

bluecatcinema wrote:I have no problem with this. Considering the mess the original series became near the end, the chance to overlook some of it is welcome.

I do have a problem with this considering the same mistakes that began to plague the original series will begin to fester in the new series. Playing loose and fast with continuity is why a good number of fans get disinterested with Ips like Star Wars, The MCU, The DCEU, and even as recent as Rise of the Beasts. And considering that ROTB isn't doing too well at the Box Office, this does not bode well for the future films. When you tell the audience that you don't care, they shouldn't be surprised when audiences show that they don't care.

The only continuity point that has been altered is the whole "Unicron is Earth" thing at the end of TLK. All things considered, not that big a loss...

And even then, there's the notion that ROTB Unicron was technically from the future, suggesting he eventually gets out of the Earth in some later era.

But, yeah, simply ignoring TLK is best for everyone's sanity.

For many reasons, I have started to discard the Bay films from my viewing palette - especially after I attempted a full rewatch when TLK came out only to find myself disappointed. I discovered then I had a lot of issues with the film's continuity (or lack thereof) really from the treatment of specific characters on down. I have come to see every movie have the same plot from the '07 movies plot again, again, and again albeit dumbed down because of Bay's lack of care for developing and creating a story that connects in any meaningful way or has any worthwhile character development because of his concerns of explosions and lens flare. He's a director that is purely spectacle and eye candy and it shows, unfortunately. The effort put into the 07 films just dramatically vanishes by the time you make it to TLK. Does anyone remember the fact that Decepticons were capable of hacking and shutting down human technology? Effective owning us? It's never brought up again and they are never shown attempting that again. While the Bumblebee movie was a good departure from all that I was exhausted with the Bayverse at that point because there really was never a definitive "this is a reboot" and that was just beyond frustrating.

I still haven't seen Rise of the Beasts. I am waiting for it to come to a streaming service like Netflix, Amazon Prime, Max, or Hulu even. It may be a great film, it might not be, but if you can't respect the continuity or be creative enough to care to tie it all together then what is the point? If I wanted spectacle I'd go to a theme park.

Coming to a point so I don't get anger and pitchforks, I get that a lot of people grew up with Bayformers and it served as their intro to the series, which is cool and fantastic. If people love ROTB, good. If people hate it, good too. Each piece of media functions as it should, as an ambassador of the brand, and from that people find something else they like or enjoy in the series that keeps them hooked. Beast Wars opened that door for me, and there are some good and bad elements of that too. In recent years I've been sampling and I found I enjoy most of what I see unless there are a lot of problems with it like the problems in the Bayverse with not respecting your continuity or your story.

The recent Bay film "Ambulance" (supposedly) won some praises for its "maturity." So I rented it, and it was just as bad as anything he did. Bay hasn't learned a thing different.

Explosions alone don't sell a TF movie anymore I think. Bay's kind of action is so old-school now, the same non-sensical Bayplosion spectacles yield ever diminishing results in a franchise, it's just science. I got bored from the action, let alone the plot by TF3. And his views that robots are stupid, "people only interested in militarism & sexy people" (I'm paraphrasing) views are not fit for helming TF movies if you're looking for any depth for the bots imo.

But Bay did a good thing in giving Caple Jr. a fairly free rein in ROTB even though Bay's a Producer, credit where credit is due.

Way I see it, BBM is still a smart reboot, ROTB is a decent sequel to it. Pray that Caple Jr. don't mess up BBM's and his own continuity. Keep the scope of each movies manageable.

My ranking for fav live-action: #1 is a tie between '07 and BBM ('07 got the initial hype & now nostaglia, BBM is a better plotted story and got the better designs. Objectively I'd say BBM is definitive #1 in a few years), #3 is ROTB (not great, but competent enough, Caple Jr. is young as a director, give him room to grow), DOTM #4, ROTF #5. AOE & TLK don't deserve to be ranked as canon and best forgotten (other than some cool designs) for the sake of Bay.

Continuity is for nerds. Either the story works, or it doesn't, and continuity doesn't have anything to do with it.

I think I made a long post a while ago about how, if you took one specific introduced element from each of the movies (including AoE and TLK), you could create a legitimate story that tied together. I doubt they will do that though. I wish I could find that post but I'm old and I forget where I put all my stuff...

...you would think the Writers Guild could come up with something while they are walking the packet lines to increase their $295,000 median salaries.

AcademyofDrX wrote:Continuity is for nerds. Either the story works, or it doesn't, and continuity doesn't have anything to do with it.

Thank you for acknowledging our supreme intellect over everyone else.

Nerds make the world work after all, it's high time we got some credit for that.

The ideas coming out of the Writer's Room are bad not because Bay used them, but due to Bay cramming as much of the ideas into his movies as possible like there's no tomorrow.

Caple Jr. *might* have a bit of that tendency too. As during one interview he was like "I want Unicorn on the big screen!" without making the case for it. I felt the theatrical release left out a whole lot of plot & character developments on the cutting floor. That's a sign of Caple Jr./script wrtiter taking in far more than one can chew for a movie.

Also, what's the case for WHY continuity is NOT important in a franchise (unless you're rebooting)?

cloudballoon wrote:The ideas coming out of the Writer's Room are bad not because Bay used them, but due to Bay cramming as much of the ideas into his movies as possible like there's no tomorrow.

Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.

cloudballoon wrote:Caple Jr. *might* have a bit of that tendency too. As during one interview he was like "I want Unicorn on the big screen!" without making the case for it. I felt the theatrical release left out a whole lot of plot & character developments on the cutting floor. That's a sign of Caple Jr./script wrtiter taking in far more than one can chew for a movie.

Yeah, the usage of Unicron in this movie kind of feels like a case where Caple simply let his inner fanboy do the talking instead of his director mindset.

Which, honestly, is pretty wild, considering how much of an anti-fan Bay was.

cloudballoon wrote:Also, what's the case for WHY continuity is NOT important in a franchise (unless you're rebooting)?

From this interview, it sounds like Caple is a fan of the first and third Bay movies, so is okay with not contradicting those, but would rather ignore AOE and TLK. Which, in a sense, is also an opinion held by a lot of us here in the fandom (preferring Movie 1 and DOTM over AOE and TLK, I mean).

Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.

That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.

Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, the usage of Unicron in this movie kind of feels like a case where Caple simply let his inner fanboy do the talking instead of his director mindset.

Spot on. It's what have me worried for the upcoming movies. Judging from all the bonus extra features released already, The ROTB theatrical cut's editing leave much to be desired. Paper-thin character development, bots with lines... I can image ROTB could've been much better, and it's kind of inexcusable given the added delay of a WHOLE year to improve on it.

Sabrblade wrote:It sounds like Caple is a fan of the first and third Bay movies, so is okay with not contradicting those, but would rather ignore AOE and TLK. Which, in a sense, is also an opinion held by a lot of us here in the fandom (preferring Movie 1 and DOTM over AOE and TLK, I mean).

As fans, WE can forget/ignore AOE and TLK. But as director/producer/IP holder, that's not the right approach to make a new continuity IMO. Caple Jr. can reveal plot points & character backgrounds in his new timeline that are exactly the same as some Bay ones (that he likes), but shoot it your own way. Can't just go and pick and choose some stuff from 5 Bay movies and discard the rest. It's way more confusing than just start over. Besides, Caple Jr. is just limiting himself with character selections too.

william-james88 wrote:Well, for those wanting a real answer, Steven Caple Jr has one: Continuity in this franchise DOES NOT MATTER.

Interviewer: In terms of the continuity of the franchise, are you worried about matching it up with the first Bay film, which suggests that Optimus has never been to earth before…
Caple Jr: … But now it’s kinda broken already. For me, I’m not like fully worried about it.

What you just read is the new official take on the matter of continuity: that it does not matter.

I'll be the one to beat the dead horse: I'm not seeing the director say that definitively.

cloudballoon wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.

That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.

I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate. Probably saw a picture of the place that was presented by a staff member and said, "that one works". I think you're giving him too much credit and spewing hate in a direction where it probably isn't warranted because of ignorance. Think of his "Smithsonian" scenes going into the aircraft graveyard in New Mexico, the Art Museum in Milwaukee being in NOT Milwaukee, etc. If he sees something he likes, I doubt he even gets as far as "what building is this" as opposed to "will I get good camera angles and will kilotons of exposives look cool here?"

continuity is important for story narrative.

just proving he's a lazy c**t much like the modern marvel/dc comics and star trek.

cloudballoon wrote:As fans, WE can forget/ignore AOE and TLK. But as director/producer/IP holder, that's not the right approach to make a new continuity IMO. Caple Jr. can reveal plot points & character backgrounds in his new timeline that are exactly the same as some Bay ones (that he likes), but shoot it your own way. Can't just go and pick and choose some stuff from 5 Bay movies and discard the rest. It's way more confusing than just start over. Besides, Caple Jr. is just limiting himself with character selections too.

I mean, it's happened before. Like when Warner Bros. made Superman Returns a sequel to Superman 1 and 2, but chose to ignore Superman 3, 4, and Supergirl (in other words, the "bad" Superman movies of the time).

First-Aid wrote:

cloudballoon wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.

That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.

I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate.

Oh, he definitely knew, and had to be a fool not to know. The filming of that scene stirred up some massive controversy long before the movie itself saw release. There were news stories and articles about the filming of that WWII scene in which locals were disgusted and outraged by the presence of those banners on that building, with Bay giving responses to the complaints in said news reports in order to justify his decisions about that scene. He knew exactly what he was doing.

Sabrblade wrote: had to be a fool not to know.

Well, it IS Michael Bay so...

My suspicion is he didn't know before the fact, only learning about the controversy after the scenes were shown, OR he didn't think it would be a big deal. He kind of lives in his own little world, like he majority of Hollywood.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote: had to be a fool not to know.

Well, it IS Michael Bay so...

My suspicion is he didn't know before the fact, only learning about the controversy after the scenes were shown, OR he didn't think it would be a big deal. He kind of lives in his own little world, like he majority of Hollywood.

Yeah, in those articles, he argued that the final presentation of the scene would honor the Allies and make Churchill proud.

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote: had to be a fool not to know.

Well, it IS Michael Bay so...

My suspicion is he didn't know before the fact, only learning about the controversy after the scenes were shown, OR he didn't think it would be a big deal. He kind of lives in his own little world, like he majority of Hollywood.

Yeah, in those articles, he argued that the final presentation of the scene would honor the Allies and make Churchill proud.

Well they did win...heh heh.

First-Aid wrote:

cloudballoon wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.

That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.

I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate. Probably saw a picture of the place that was presented by a staff member and said, "that one works". I think you're giving him too much credit and spewing hate in a direction where it probably isn't warranted because of ignorance. Think of his "Smithsonian" scenes going into the aircraft graveyard in New Mexico, the Art Museum in Milwaukee being in NOT Milwaukee, etc. If he sees something he likes, I doubt he even gets as far as "what building is this" as opposed to "will I get good camera angles and will kilotons of exposives look cool here?"

So... just arrogance then? But at this point, I'm kind of beyond caring anything Bay-wise, inside or outside of the TF franchise to be angry anymore. As I said before, Bay as a producer of ROTB he was hands off enough to not interfere Caple Jr. too much it seems... and that's a credit to Bay. Let give TF a fresh start from BBM/ROTB on, for a better planned future. Stick to whatever elements you introduce and give the viewers consistency, followups and closure, not a thousand dropped plots & contradictions.

cloudballoon wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

cloudballoon wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.

That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.

I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate. Probably saw a picture of the place that was presented by a staff member and said, "that one works". I think you're giving him too much credit and spewing hate in a direction where it probably isn't warranted because of ignorance. Think of his "Smithsonian" scenes going into the aircraft graveyard in New Mexico, the Art Museum in Milwaukee being in NOT Milwaukee, etc. If he sees something he likes, I doubt he even gets as far as "what building is this" as opposed to "will I get good camera angles and will kilotons of exposives look cool here?"

So... just arrogance then?

Ignorance disguised as "artistic intent".

Just want to point out that I believe, it's been said not directly but implied, that Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman probably departed from writing anything for the film series after RotF. Their ideas seemed to carry directly over to Transformers Prime, where I recalled reading in an interview with them, they were able to finally get to more connected storytelling. I really feel Bay is a lot of the reason they saw themselves out of the production as they knew he was more focused on lens flare and big explosions. It's sort of why RotF ended up so half-assed in the writing department because both Orci and Kurtzman got replaced due to the writer's strike at that time too. I feel like they used it as a convenient door to jump fully on board to work on Transformers Prime to put all of their ideas and notes to use in another area altogether since Bay was probably difficult to work with for them based on how uncreative he is with his approach.

I'd also venture that the whole writing quality tanked due to both creative differences with Bay and them and the writer strike at that time for both RotF and DOTM.

I admit, my assertions are based solely on assumption and probably not what actually happened. To me, however, this is just what I thought transpired or why the sudden tonal shift and lack of care regarding story cohesion.

Tyrannacon wrote:I'd also venture that the whole writing quality tanked due to both creative differences with Bay and them and the writer strike at that time for both RotF and DOTM.

I admit, my assertions are based solely on assumption and probably not what actually happened. To me, however, this is just what I thought transpired or why the sudden tonal shift and lack of care regarding story cohesion.

The writer's strike taught the producers they could make almost a billion dollars practically without a script. Is it any wonder that none of the core movies have had good writing?

AcademyofDrX wrote:

Tyrannacon wrote:I'd also venture that the whole writing quality tanked due to both creative differences with Bay and them and the writer strike at that time for both RotF and DOTM.

I admit, my assertions are based solely on assumption and probably not what actually happened. To me, however, this is just what I thought transpired or why the sudden tonal shift and lack of care regarding story cohesion.

The writer's strike taught the producers they could make almost a billion dollars practically without a script. Is it any wonder that none of the core movies have had good writing?

Exactly, because it wasn't until after that when Bay just started pushing the series into any useless dreck that came to his mind while setting it all in the middle of the cacophony of lens flare and explosions. I mean it kinda already was there already, but at least there was some force there to reel his crap in until there wasn't.

That said, if there's evidence to show that I am wrong about all this, please share. I don't like making "tin-hat theories" without substantial evidence and all of this is one deduction after another based on what I've read from various places across the 'net, which can be not too reliable nowadays. Oh well, the shoe does fit, however.

Tyrannacon wrote:Just want to point out that I believe, it's been said not directly but implied, that Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman probably departed from writing anything for the film series after RotF. Their ideas seemed to carry directly over to Transformers Prime, where I recalled reading in an interview with them, they were able to finally get to more connected storytelling. I really feel Bay is a lot of the reason they saw themselves out of the production as they knew he was more focused on lens flare and big explosions. It's sort of why RotF ended up so half-assed in the writing department because both Orci and Kurtzman got replaced due to the writer's strike at that time too. I feel like they used it as a convenient door to jump fully on board to work on Transformers Prime to put all of their ideas and notes to use in another area altogether since Bay was probably difficult to work with for them based on how uncreative he is with his approach.

Except, Orci and Kurtzman didn't write a single episode of TF: Prime. They instead were that show's producers, alongside Jeff Kline and Duane Capizzi.

Yeah, I was wondering if they had any writing credits for the series despite being producers and just completely assumed they had played some part in the writing of episodes. I stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out I really appreciate it. Also, I do wonder how much influence they had on the show's direction and progression over the three seasons.

Tyrannacon wrote:Yeah, I was wondering if they had any writing credits for the series despite being producers and just completely assumed they had played some part in the writing of episodes. I stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out I really appreciate it. Also, I do wonder how much influence they had on the show's direction and progression over the three seasons.

IIRC, the two of them oversaw the story of the five-part series opener (even if they didn't write it), but little else after that.