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Another thing to consider is the "plausible deniability" factor. If you have a movie that the analytics say isn't going to make it's money back, regardless of release date, you can cram it between other big name releases and blame the other movies for its failure rather than it be obvious that it failed on its own merits, or lack thereof. Then drop it on digital as soon as possible in the hopes it'll pick up some cash in the home market before any bad word of mouth tanks it fully.

Remember, a movie never fails because they made a movie few people wanted to see. It fails because we fans are too stupid to appreciate their artistic vision or the stars were out of alignment their dog had covid or some other nonsense.

Brokebot wrote:Remember, a movie never fails because they made a movie few people wanted to see. It fails because we fans are too stupid to appreciate their artistic vision or the stars were out of alignment their dog had covid or some other nonsense.

I expect the director to blame some "isms" if the movie doesn't do well enough.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

Brokebot wrote:Remember, a movie never fails because they made a movie few people wanted to see. It fails because we fans are too stupid to appreciate their artistic vision or the stars were out of alignment their dog had covid or some other nonsense.

I expect the director to blame some "isms" if the movie doesn't do well enough.

you can almost guarantee it nowadays

Like I said, ROTB is fine... middle of the road in terms of live-action TF movies. Never expected a TF movie (or DC/Marvel or any franchise for that matter) to be masterpieces.

What I expect is some sensical bot fight choreographies & cool transformations, and it delivers more than most. You know, a reason to turn off the brain, enjoy some popcorn and a sense of fun. Million plots holes can be damned in a summber blockbuster movie for me.

Many of these summer movies are no longer fun. They're still spectacles, yes, but not fun.

The worse part of ROTB is the (again) human characters. This time is for different reasons than the Bay films. I'm not anti-woke, but what some people called "woke" issues - whatever that is - need to be addressed sensibly, if warranted in a plot. I can't see why or how that's needed in a TF movie though. When you "checkmark" representation/"woke" issues and not doing a justifiably good job about it, then that's just terrible, as it opens the movie to needless criticisms and lost sales as a certain set of society just love to boycott these movies. It's too bad I like Ramos & Fishback enough (much better than Bay selling sexploitisms & over-the-top toilet "humors") but their characters are not great in ROTB.

cloudballoon wrote:Like I said, ROTB is fine... middle of the road in terms of live-action TF movies. Never expected a TF movie (or DC/Marvel or any franchise for that matter) to be masterpieces.

What I expect is some sensical bot fight choreographies & cool transformations, and it delivers more than most. You know, a reason to turn off the brain, enjoy some popcorn and a sense of fun. Million plots holes can be damned in a summber blockbuster movie for me.

Many of these summer movies are no longer fun. They're still spectacles, yes, but not fun.

The worse part of ROTB is the (again) human characters. This time is for different reasons than the Bay films. I'm not anti-woke, but what some people called "woke" issues - whatever that is - need to be addressed sensibly, if warranted in a plot. I can't see why or how that's needed in a TF movie though. When you "checkmark" representation/"woke" issues and not doing a justifiably good job about it, then that's just terrible, as it opens the movie to needless criticisms and lost sales as a certain set of society just love to boycott these movies. It's too bad I like Ramos & Fishback enough (much better than Bay selling sexploitisms & over-the-top toilet "humors") but their characters are not great in ROTB.

The story has to come first. All other considerations are secondary. Take Star Trek for example. Back in the 60's, ST:TOS would have been considered woke as hell, but because of the heavy censorship they had to deal with, they had to weave their message into a compelling story that Ma and PA Middle-America could watch with the kids without freaking out. To this day, those shows are still watchable and far more compelling than the ham-fisted nonsense they're putting out now.

Except maybe the third season of Picard. That was on point.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Kinda surprising just how lackluster the box office this weekend was in general.

Father's Day has traditionally been a mediocre weekend. Dads are too busy grilling.

ANyone else find it interesting that everyone takes Mom out for dinner/brunch on Mother's day, but Dads end up cooking on the grill on Father's Day?

I wonder if there will be a pick-up this weekend. The Audience scores are still really good and the scores for the Flash are not. The Flash has an audience score of 51%, which is pathetic. ROTB is still at 91%. I think ROTB will have better staying power than the Flash too.

Brokebot wrote:The story has to come first. All other considerations are secondary. Take Star Trek for example. Back in the 60's, ST:TOS would have been considered woke as hell, but because of the heavy censorship they had to deal with, they had to weave their message into a compelling story that Ma and PA Middle-America could watch with the kids without freaking out. To this day, those shows are still watchable and far more compelling than the ham-fisted nonsense they're putting out now.

Except maybe the third season of Picard. That was on point.

Star Trek might get an easier pass - even in the 60's - on social/cultural issues because it's Sci-Fi that's distance in the future. It doesn't feel like it "hit home" as close as the current TF/DC/Marvel that's depicting a "today" society (or 1994 in ROTB).

There are too many people - on both the left & right - that are snowflakes, they actively go out of their way to ruin things for the vast middle.

Appeasement culture is running too rampant in Hollywood. Both full-on "woke" or "anti-woke" are bad if done in detriment to the story. But what's worst is producers paying exorbitant millions for dumb CGI & star actors (that's not really worth their salt) instead of paying mere decent money for good writers. That's a big factor why many, many movies are no fun any more.

Back to TF/ROTB. I don't know why, but producers/directors seeems to love to bite more than they could chew in introducing TF lore in their movies, except '07 & BBM imo. ROTB is a "Mid" movie, and it's brought down to that level because of this primary sin.

Coptur wrote:the human characters were annoying as could they be and any negative human was surprise surprise white person...

Right, because Bay never had any unlikable white human characters in his mov--OH WAIT, the majority of his white human characters were insufferable.

Coptur wrote:Mirage being an everything former is just lazy. tranformers characters used to have specific functions limiting their alt modes but no now they can be anything whenever they want without any consquences but never mind we need a truck now.

It was his holographic illusion technology. He used his hologram tech to give himself the appearance of other vehicle modes. It's why he kept reverting back to his normal Porche altmode instead of treating any of the other vehicles he mimicked as his new default altmode.

Randomhero wrote:It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

I don't know who you're talking to in that, but I simply reported what was being predicted at the moment given the film's trajectory.

We can't draw conclusions for sure, but it's not because of it not being released in Japan and Australia yet. The only way for this film to succeed is if it does well in the US or China (and preferably the US since Paramount doesn't make much from Chinese box office). The Japanese and Oceanic markets have never been enough to support a US made film.

I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda. We've seen it now, and and aside from the protagonists being nonwhite, was there anything particularly progressive about it? I don't really keep up with alright stuff, but do people consider the inclusion of non-vehicle Maximals as 'too diverse' for their liking...?

Regarding the box office, these really are strange times. I can certainly understand it; there have been several films recently I was excited to see, but knowing they were all coming to streaming quite soon I opted to just wait for that. The only films I'll make much effort to see on a big screen now are horrors (since they really just have a different vibe when watched in a dark theatre) or movies that look like they'll have incredible cinematography. I'm a little curious to learn how much streaming deals impact the bottom line for these kinda movies, since it's increasingly seeming like box office doesn't give the whole picture.

I just hope RotB does well enough that we keep getting transformers movies. I've only really liked 3 of them, but I love me that movie aesthetic for the figures.

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda. We've seen it now, and and aside from the protagonists being nonwhite, was there anything particularly progressive about it? I don't really keep up with alright stuff, but do people consider the inclusion of non-vehicle Maximals as 'too diverse' for their liking...?

Regarding the box office, these really are strange times. I can certainly understand it; there have been several films recently I was excited to see, but knowing they were all coming to streaming quite soon I opted to just wait for that. The only films I'll make much effort to see on a big screen now are horrors (since they really just have a different vibe when watched in a dark theatre) or movies that look like they'll have incredible cinematography. I'm a little curious to learn how much streaming deals impact the bottom line for these kinda movies, since it's increasingly seeming like box office doesn't give the whole picture.

I just hope RotB does well enough that we keep getting transformers movies. I've only really liked 3 of them, but I love me that movie aesthetic for the figures.

I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Never thought of that. Good point. I tend to look at people as organs, skin, and cells because I've been in healthcare for 27 years and ignore skin unless there is a rash, laceration, or wound. I blew right by that I guess.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Never thought of that. Good point. I tend to look at people as organs, skin, and cells because I've been in healthcare for 27 years and ignore skin unless there is a rash, laceration, or wound. I blew right by that I guess.

Yeah, as soon as his design was first unveiled, a whole lotta Urkel comparisons sprung up.

YoungPrime wrote:

Randomhero wrote:It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

What conclusion...?

Hollywood gets the most of it's return from the domestic box-office. This is fact! And at this rate it may not even reach $200M here in the states. Which isn't a good look. Sure international box-office will help but if you Google China box-office you'll see that Studios only get 25% of whatever that is if they're lucky.

So the only "Conclusion" that I've personally jumped on years ago was Hasbro finding someway to get all of their Movie rights back ASAP! Because Paramount trying to promote some lame crossover when they can't even get either IP right separately is not going to cut it!

Age of Extinction was considered a huge hit making 1.1B at the box office, of which 245M was domestic, 301M was China, with the other roughly 550M being the rest of the world. These movies have been more popular abroad for a long time. If you look at the box office trend film to film, the domestic box office has steadily declined, with the international box office growing with each instalment. Finally The Last Knight basically bombed domestically, but did well abroad, though not as well as the last couple films. People domestically having been losing interest in these movies with each film.

Mistakes that I think were made with this film (which I actually rather liked);

1) poor marketing. No one I talk to IRL knows this movie exists, even people who casually like Transformers or Beast Wars.

2) Not making it a hardline reboot. The vague plot and stylistic connections to the Bay films hurt this movie, in my opinion. Completely start over with a new design aesthetic for the characters, with a full story reboot that focuses on characters people know. Classic Autobots like Prime, Ironhide, Wheeljack, BumbleBee, Cliffjumper, etc.

3) The GI Joe crossover tease, while cool, is a bit dubious since those films have never been terrible successful to begin with. Are we going to bring back Channing Tatum as Duke or The Rock as Roadblock and just hope people remember they were in GI Joe movies that barely anyone watch over a decade ago? Both of these franchises should have been rebooted with new directions and, if people respond well, then cross them over. This whole thing with taking about a new trilogy and crossover films feels Dark Universe-ish in putting the cart before the horse.

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Never thought of that. Good point. I tend to look at people as organs, skin, and cells because I've been in healthcare for 27 years and ignore skin unless there is a rash, laceration, or wound. I blew right by that I guess.

Yeah, as soon as his design was first unveiled, a whole lotta Urkel comparisons sprung up.

O...I gotcha. THAT I understand. Don't knock it though. Steve Urkel was the shiznit.

Sabrblade wrote:

Coptur wrote:the human characters were annoying as could they be and any negative human was surprise surprise white person...

Right, because Bay never had any unlikable white human characters in his mov--OH WAIT, the majority of his white human characters were insufferable.

Coptur wrote:Mirage being an everything former is just lazy. tranformers characters used to have specific functions limiting their alt modes but no now they can be anything whenever they want without any consquences but never mind we need a truck now.

It was his holographic illusion technology. He used his hologram tech to give himself the appearance of other vehicle modes. It's why he kept reverting back to his normal Porche altmode instead of treating any of the other vehicles he mimicked as his new default altmode.

Now I know you are being deliberately obtuse.

Yes there are annoy white characters in the bay movies well done round of applause to you but there are also annoying other race characters.

All the white characters were deliberately put into conflict with non white characters in this movie you'd had to be an idiot not to have noticed it, especially give the modern cinema and TV shows.
The nurse, the security boss and the museum boss. Even the gijoe guy was a smarmy sod.

Maybe/possible but why show the transformation? And Noah was seen climbing out of the truck not phasing out of Mirage seeing as the holograms weren't hardlight projections as we could see this in the chase scene that and mirages new plot device ability to turn into an eco suit.

Coptur wrote:The nurse, the security boss and the museum boss. Even the gijoe guy was a smarmy sod.

Haha, so you see a woman in a hospital setting and can only imagine her being a nurse, WOW

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda.

It comes primarily from his comments about how he was going to use the movie to highlight black/Latino culture when that's not what people want in a movie about giant alien robots. Not so much "woke" as it is misplaced priorities.

Brokebot wrote:

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda.

It comes primarily from his comments about how he was going to use the movie to highlight black/Latino culture

And after seeing the movie, there really wasn't much of that in the movie anyway.

Sabrblade wrote:The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

I don't remember it being called "too ethnic." I remember it being "too Urkel" and too radical a departure from ANY representation of the character, most especially his cameo appearance in the previous movie.

Seriously, they could have made up a name like they did with Transit and no one would have complained.

Sabrblade wrote:

Brokebot wrote:

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda.

It comes primarily from his comments about how he was going to use the movie to highlight black/Latino culture

And after seeing the movie, there really wasn't much of that in the movie anyway.

This. the comments on "woke" are incredibly stupid after seeing the movie, since there was basically NOTHING of that nature. The closest you get is the whole "family cannot afford the medical bills to save a kids life" deal, but that is hardly limited to one specific ethnicity.