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But they are clearly aiming for the same people. If Hasbro doesn't believe in retail value of SS etc Then why do anything specifically for Victory? A series that means nothing to anyone beyond the primarily Japanese fanbase that actually saw it.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:But they are clearly aiming for the same people. If Hasbro doesn't believe in retail value of SS etc Then why do anything specifically for Victory? A series that means nothing to anyone beyond the primarily Japanese fanbase that actually saw it.

You literally don't understand this, at all there's a difference between a mass retail release and a made to order batch, funded ahead of time, to a business. by doing this hasbro can give fans what they want while also negating any risks involved in testing the waters as to whether there's wider spread interest in these little-known cartoon characters. this is literally optimal to them, remember star saber/victory characters are already probably starting from behind in their view because deathsaurus didn't win the fan poll, which they probably interpreted as confirming to them there wasn't much interest in victory figures - whether you agree with that logic or not.

Seems like points that were already discussed by various people over the last four pages. While speculation about "testing waters" is all well and good. It is a presumption like any other, until official word is released.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote::lol:

Seems like points that were already discussed by various people over the last four pages. While speculation about "testing waters" is all well and good. It is a presumption like any other, until official word is released.

I think the leadup to the PotP poll should be confirmation enough honestly. We got the quarter-baked Liokaiser in CW, a full-blown Overlord (with Skyshadow pretool) in TR, and would've gotten either Deathsaurus or Star Saber in PotP had they won the fan poll. They lost the poll and JG1 characters completely disappeared until Roritchi happened midway through ER, three years later. Roritchi led to Black Zarak and Black Zarak is now leading to the Haslab.
Maybe Takara's Selects of JG1 helped show the interest there is for those figures (Star Saber, Super Megatron, etc) but that's besides the point.

If this Haslab fails, I doubt we'll see JG1 again before Legacy Part 3.

There's no precedent within HasLab though. They've all been one off's. For example, Unicron didn't beget the other two Planet Bots (Primus and Atlas, respectively) coming into existence.

Overlord and Skyshadow is weird one. As their trio is incomplete without Blue Bacchus. Who hasn't had a new figure since 1989.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:There's no precedent within HasLab though. They've all been one off's. For example, Unicron didn't beget the other two Planet Bots (Primus and Atlas, respectively) coming into existence.

Overlord and Skyshadow is weird one. As their trio is incomplete without Blue Bacchus. Who hasn't had a new figure since 1989.

To be fair, I think there would have been an uproar if they did Primus so soon after Unicron as the big P would be just as expensive. They'll never do Atlas though as he only existed in the IDW gi Joe vs tf series, the last issue to boot.

ZeroWolf wrote: They'll never do Atlas though as he only existed in the IDW gi Joe vs tf series, the last issue to boot.

Who wouldn't HasLab this?

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote: They'll never do Atlas though as he only existed in the IDW gi Joe vs tf series, the last issue to boot.

Who wouldn't HasLab this?

Easy, HasLab themselves

He may stand a chance if atlas turns up in other media (not that it did Metrotitan any good)

ZeroWolf wrote:Easy, HasLab themselves He may stand a chance if atlas turns up in other media (not that it did Metrotitan any good)

While I've always said I would like to see new Planet and City Bots (not just redecos), I know realistically it will never happen. Ironically enough, HasLab should be the platform to make that happen.

No love for Primus' sister, Gaea, the original Earth-former.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:There's no precedent within HasLab though. They've all been one off's. For example, Unicron didn't beget the other two Planet Bots (Primus and Atlas, respectively) coming into existence.

Unicron was specifically meant to tie into the TFTM revival toys. Before Unicron, SS86 didn't exist (and I believe it was apparently meant to be the final part of the WFC trilogy). It's no coincidence that we got Unicron, Rodimus, Galvatron, Cyclonus, and Scourge all in the span of a year.

Now granted, Unicron wasn't testing the waters for anything else but Haslab itself. Hasbro would always make new 86 figures because we're trapped in the perpetual cycle of 84-86 so that's a very different story from Star Saber.

Nuclearxpotato wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:There's no precedent within HasLab though. They've all been one off's. For example, Unicron didn't beget the other two Planet Bots (Primus and Atlas, respectively) coming into existence.

Unicron was specifically meant to tie into the TFTM revival toys. Before Unicron, SS86 didn't exist (and I believe it was apparently meant to be the final part of the WFC trilogy). It's no coincidence that we got Unicron, Rodimus, Galvatron, Cyclonus, and Scourge all in the span of a year.

Now granted, Unicron wasn't testing the waters for anything else but Haslab itself. Hasbro would always make new 86 figures because we're trapped in the perpetual cycle of 84-86 so that's a very different story from Star Saber.

Not to mention that the year we got Unicron, Kingdom, and SS86 is 2021, the 35th anniversary of TFTM.

Sabrblade wrote:

Nuclearxpotato wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:There's no precedent within HasLab though. They've all been one off's. For example, Unicron didn't beget the other two Planet Bots (Primus and Atlas, respectively) coming into existence.

Unicron was specifically meant to tie into the TFTM revival toys. Before Unicron, SS86 didn't exist (and I believe it was apparently meant to be the final part of the WFC trilogy). It's no coincidence that we got Unicron, Rodimus, Galvatron, Cyclonus, and Scourge all in the span of a year.

Now granted, Unicron wasn't testing the waters for anything else but Haslab itself. Hasbro would always make new 86 figures because we're trapped in the perpetual cycle of 84-86 so that's a very different story from Star Saber.

Not to mention that the year we got Unicron, Kingdom, and SS86 is 2021, the 35th anniversary of TFTM.

MP-24 was a one off. There is nothing to suggest this HasLab Victory project won't be too. The characters from TFTM have global recognition. Sunbow was everywhere. The Takara Series characters don't. If this HasLab project was testing reception to the Takara Series, then why start with the third series and not the first? 32 isn't a typical anniversary year. They also could have gone with a certainty like Ginrai/Powermaster Prime. They know a Prime would sell, whatever they charged.

Sabrblade wrote:No love for Primus' sister, Gaea, the original Earth-former.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The Takara Series characters don't. If this HasLab project was testing reception to the Takara Series, then why start with the third series and not the first?

It's not necessarily when it came in line, but how many characters and especially toy designs it exclusively has. Some grabs:

The Headmasters
- The Headmaster Warriors Kirk, Loafer, Rodney, Lione, Toraizer, Shuffler, with two of them appearing in Titans Return (Toraizer was planned, but canceled)
- Stepper aka Ricochet, who's become a staple
- Artfire, who has a Selects release on the way

Choujin Masterforce
- Overlord, who's also become a staple
- Black Zarak, with an upcoming Selects release
- Metalhawk, who's seen a few releases
- Godbomber

Victory
- Star Saber
- Victory Leo
- Road Caesar
- Landcross
- Galaxy Shuttle
- Deathsaurus
- Liokaiser, who's has a CW release

The rest of the exclusive characters were either straight re-releases or redecos of existing toys (like Stepper and Artfire are). You can tell Victory has more original designs than the other two series, and as such may be too obscure to the common consumer.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:Victory
- Star Saber
- Victory Leo
- Road Caesar
- Landcross
- Galaxy Shuttle
- Deathsaurus
- Liokaiser, who's has a CW release

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't every main release completely new or at least moderately retooled from Hasbro's toyline? The only shared figures I can remember are the Crossformers who were retooled from their Western counterparts.

Nuclearxpotato wrote:

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:Victory
- Star Saber
- Victory Leo
- Road Caesar
- Landcross
- Galaxy Shuttle
- Deathsaurus
- Liokaiser, who's has a CW release

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't every main release completely new or at least moderately retooled from Hasbro's toyline? The only shared figures I can remember are the Crossformers who were retooled from their Western counterparts.

In Victory? Yeah, and thank you for reminding me of the Crossformers Black Shadow and Blue Bacchus. Also, Dinoking's base was Monstructor.

I think the amount of unique designs is why Victory was chosen for this, to keep us guessing

I'd like to believe this is a sign we are Finally moving on, beyond Sunbow-G1. But I just don't see Hasbro cutting that cord.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I'd like to believe this is a sign we are Finally moving on, beyond Sunbow-G1. But I just don't see Hasbro cutting that cord.

Given what leakers have proposed, that future generations lines will be 50-50 on G1 content...yeah they're going to keep tapping that well.

ZeroWolf wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I'd like to believe this is a sign we are Finally moving on, beyond Sunbow-G1. But I just don't see Hasbro cutting that cord.

Given what leakers have proposed, that future generations lines will be 50-50 on G1 content...yeah they're going to keep tapping that well.

... Like any other company would do when reviving a franchise: stick with the original, ignore the sequels and side stories.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I'd like to believe this is a sign we are Finally moving on, beyond Sunbow-G1. But I just don't see Hasbro cutting that cord.

Given what leakers have proposed, that future generations lines will be 50-50 on G1 content...yeah they're going to keep tapping that well.

... Like any other company would do when reviving a franchise: stick with the original, ignore the sequels and side stories.

That's the weird part. Why are we still "reviving" Transformers, with G1? The Franchise is nearly 40 years old and the one and only time it needed to be revived, happened in 1996. Transformers has been a continuous pop culture presence since then. Even with a series of films that earned more money than those first three years ever did. G1 isn't needed to keep Transformers going. If anything, all it does is hold it back.

Cutting the head off a successful franchise is never a good idea. We've seen what happens when you start telling older fans " we don't need you anymore" and it's never good. There's always a line for new product, and there always will be I'd imagine. But, while I agree the generations line can expand to be more inclusive, if you stop producing the likeness of characters altogether from the original series, the line will suffer, I guarantee it.

Transformers Generations toys are being lauded as some of the best ever in terms of development, qc issues aside, I don't think the choices in characters have held it back. I think the lack of focus is annoying, but that's just me. I'd still rather WFC end with a full blown original series futuristic storyline, then in 2022 go Full on BW. Anniversaries are not that important, especially when Hasbro isn't even advertising it. Crossover events even less so as they can happen anytime.

o.supreme wrote:Cutting the head off a successful franchise is never a good idea. We've seen what happens when you start telling older fans "we don't need you anymore" and it's never good.

I dunno, I don't think it's really about cutting off the head, as moving forward with the times. Beast Wars was effectively that take and it paid off.
There are always new fans, after all. Old fans tend to get too proprietary also. Which is problematic in itself. For example, there was an art piece on Social Media - a dual portrait of G1 Megatron & Galvatron. I'm paraphrasing the exact quote but one person commented that one character made the franchise. The other killed the franchise. The new characters didn't kill the franchise, that's not how that works. The fans did.

He-Man ran foul of clinging onto the old fanbase at the cost of new one. This is why MOTU went from one of the biggest brand names of it's day, to being referred to as "an 80's property", as a throwback term. It has never regained the prominence it had and likely never will.

In contrast, TMNT has always rolled with the times. The basics are still there, but it has never been the same. Embracing fans new and old.

Meanwhile, Marvel & DC for years, have prioritised new fans over old. There was an old line that fan forums always used to band around as gospel. That Marvel would sooner push 10 old fans off a cliff, if it got them 10 new ones. Which still persists to this day. As the MCU is largely based around the source material of the past 20 years and rarely anything before it.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

o.supreme wrote:Cutting the head off a successful franchise is never a good idea. We've seen what happens when you start telling older fans "we don't need you anymore" and it's never good.

I dunno, I don't think it's really about cutting off the head, as moving forward with the times. Beast Wars was effectively that take and it paid off.
There are always new fans, after all. Old fans tend to get too proprietary also. Which is problematic in itself. For example, there was an art piece on Social Media - a dual portrait of G1 Megatron & Galvatron. I'm paraphrasing the exact quote but one person commented that one character made the franchise. The other killed the franchise. The new characters didn't kill the franchise, that's not how that works. The fans did.

He-Man ran foul of clinging onto the old fanbase at the cost of new one. This is why MOTU went from one of the biggest brand names of it's day, to being referred to as "an 80's property", as a throwback term. It has never regained the prominence it had and likely never will.

In contrast, TMNT has always rolled with the times. The basics are still there, but it has never been the same. Embracing fans new and old.

Meanwhile, Marvel & DC for years, have prioritised new fans over old. There was an old line that fan forums always used to band around as gospel. That Marvel would sooner push 10 old fans off a cliff, if it got them 10 new ones. Which still persists to this day. As the MCU is largely based around the source material of the past 20 years and rarely anything before it.

What sets Transformers apart from all the other lines up is that up until the Classics line of 2006 (tho a case can be made for the Action Masters and G2), the characters themselves were never redesigned and re-released like the other examples were (except for Optimus Prime and Megatron to a lesser extent); instead new characters kept coming and going (which leads to one of the biggest overall character pools of any given IP ).

This is a topic for yet another new thread tho...

Which is all Transformers needs to do, to reinvent itself. For example, Optimus Prime with a starship altmode and a matt grey/chrome colour scheme. Plus a new headsculpt (akin to the Super Megatron body with a brand new head). Or a suggestion I made elsewhere, Soundwave and Blaster being Gestalts of smaller, beastformers (aka the Cassettes). Do something atypical with everyone. Mix it up a bit.

No one still pines for Batman to look like he did in the 40's, after all.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:cutting off the head, as moving forward with the times. Beast Wars was effectively that take and it paid off.

Except it really didn't. For how brave and different it was, it had to solidify that it was in fact taking place in the same continuity as the original series to appeal to both old and new fans, that's when it really started to pay off, and why episodes such as the Agenda 3 part are the most popular.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:There are always new fans, after all. Old fans tend to get too proprietary...He-Man ran foul of clinging onto the old fanbase at the cost of new one. This is why MOTU went from one of the biggest brand names of it's day, to being referred to as "an 80's property", as a throwback term. It has never regained the prominence it had and likely never will.

If there are always new fans,no franchise would ever end. Unfortunately it's the NA that you happen to live so much that most fans will point to as the first death if He-Man. A "too soon"take that nobody asked for at the time. The 2002 reboot was amazing, better than the original I'd say,but CN stupidly killed it along with several other great animated series in favor of cal- arts garbage they've been pushing for the last decade +

AllNewSuperRobot wrote: In contrast, TMNT has always rolled with the times. The basics are still there, but it has never been the same. Embracing fans new and old.

Meanwhile, Marvel & DC for years, have prioritised new fans over old. There was an old line that fan forums always used to band around as gospel. That Marvel would sooner push 10 old fans off a cliff, if it got them 10 new ones. Which still persists to this day. As the MCU is largely based around the source material of the past 20 years and rarely anything before it.

The last thing I cared about as far as TMNT was the CG movie produced by IMAGI back in 2007. Also you are right about Marvel and DC. Pushing out older fans is why the comic book industry overall is dying and sales are worse than ever. Ow that the MCU starting to do the same, you will see phase 4 easily bethe weakest in terms of story, popularity, and the ability to generate money.