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DeathReviews wrote:And in some measure, it makes me resentful that they forced price point hikes on some figures to dump in these weapons, which many of us didn't even really want, and perhaps diminish the engineering on those figures because they thought the weapons made them 'good enough'.

That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works

DeathReviews wrote:The Energon weapon thing may have been a neat concept, but it just doesn't work out that well in real life. There's the fact that they have to force some figures to take weapons which don't make any sense (like Blitzwing), just to carry on the gimmick.

And there's the fact that these weapons just don't 'combine' well. You can jam them all together sure, but they don't look good. And any combo weapon you make out of them would be unwieldy, and ineffective to the point of mockery if you tried to actually use it. Yes, they're toy weapons, so real life doesn't matter. But they're at least meant to allow SOME suspension of disbelief. I don't look at any of the combos in that diagram, and say to myself, "Yeah, that could work".

And in some measure, it makes me resentful that they forced price point hikes on some figures to dump in these weapons, which many of us didn't even really want, and perhaps diminish the engineering on those figures because they thought the weapons made them 'good enough'.

I dunno, the clumps of guns seem fun to me as a "certainly will kill you to death" sort of way, and you don't have to combine them anyway since they look pretty good on their own. The kids will definitely get a kick out of it and I'm sure some adults will get memories of Energon weapons and Arms Microns.
Also the engineering of the figures definitely didn't seem to have suffered at all, the bots are still very fun to handle.

I think it’s pretty cool, the figures are pretty cool, and any I get for my nephews and nieces will be customized. Kids love stuff like that, and I’m still a sucker for see through plastic as and adult

o.supreme wrote:So I guess we'll call this Minerva from Victory as opposed Masterforce . Anyway, looks cool. However, I am a bit surprised. I don't think we ever had confirmation Red Alert ever showed up in a Walgreens store, it was online only ( Pulse very limited, and occasionally on Walgreens.com). Kind of disappointing since I had been able to find all the others going back to TR Brainstorm fairly easily.

Indeed, I don't think Red Alert was ever found in stores aside from a possible return.

Sabrblade wrote:It's basically IDW2 Minerva, who is not a Headmaster.

The IDW2 character is based on this toy's design, so I don't find it fair. Then again some people need fiction to validate a toy's existence so they have that now.

AcademyofDrX wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:And in some measure, it makes me resentful that they forced price point hikes on some figures to dump in these weapons, which many of us didn't even really want, and perhaps diminish the engineering on those figures because they thought the weapons made them 'good enough'.

That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works

You're right, that's not how it works. And I thought I wrote it clearly enough in the article. It's the other way around. None of the engineering is diminished, it is instead improved by having a leader budget for a voyager sized toy. The gauntlets are just there to help sell the figure to people who need a visual aid to substantiate paying leader prices.

Well, disappointing she's not a headmaster, but if we can get upgrade kits with Sludge's popping eyes, we can get a headmaster conversion kit. Either way, I'm just glad we're getting more JG1 (maybe we'll get some Road Caesar and LioKaiser stuff, please Hasbro)

You're right, that's not how it works. And I thought I wrote it clearly enough in the article. It's the other way around. None of the engineering is diminished, it is instead improved by having a leader budget for a voyager sized toy. The gauntlets are just there to help sell the figure to people who need a visual aid to substantiate paying leader prices.

I'll allow it 'works' in that it represents what Hasbro is actually DOING. But it doesn't 'work' for many of us buyers, in the sense that we're being asked to believe that figures like Blitzwing are 'improved' by mere reason of the inclusion of these gauntlet pieces.

I would have been perfectly happy to live without the energon gauntlets, and lowered Blitzwing to Voyager price. Based on the size and engineering seen in videos, that seems to be all it's worth. Instead, we have to pay leader price for a voyager figure (again) and have our intelligence insulted with the notion that the inclusion of these gauntlet weapons somehow makes Blitzwing "worth" the price of a Leader figure. The only way I could see myself using those silly things is if they could be fitted onto Mensaor's forearms somehow and become proper gloves. Don't see how that's possible though.

PvP have the Minervia review up.



I'd disappointed that she's not a headmaster, but I find hilarious that she's basically a reverse Titan Return bot.

I'll buy her and I expect a upgrade kit and a Reprolabels set to make her truly perfect.

DeathReviews wrote:Based on the size and engineering seen in videos, that seems to be all it's worth. Instead, we have to pay leader price for a voyager figure (again) and have our intelligence insulted with the notion that the inclusion of these gauntlet weapons somehow makes Blitzwing "worth" the price of a Leader figure.

Do you just ... not remember what Prime Wars voyagers were like at all

DeathReviews wrote:

You're right, that's not how it works. And I thought I wrote it clearly enough in the article. It's the other way around. None of the engineering is diminished, it is instead improved by having a leader budget for a voyager sized toy. The gauntlets are just there to help sell the figure to people who need a visual aid to substantiate paying leader prices.

I'll allow that it 'works' in that it represents what Hasbro is actually DOING. But it doesn't 'work' for many of us in the sense that we're being asked to believe that figures like Blitzwing are 'improved' by mere reason of the inclusion of these gauntlet pieces.

I (for one) would rather have paid voyager price for Blitzwing, because based on the size and engineering, that seems to be all it's worth. In exchange for that, I would have been perfectly happy to live without the energon gauntlets. Instead, we have to pay leader price for a voyager figure (again) and have our intelligence insulted with the notion that the inclusion of these gauntlet weapons somehow makes Blitzwing worth the price of a Leader figure. The only way I could see myself using those silly things is if they could be fitted onto Mensaor's forearms somehow and become proper gloves. Don't see how that's possible though.

You don't lower Blitzwing to voyager price just by removing the gauntlets. I can't say I know how Hasbro specifically budgets, but my educated guess is that those gauntlets are not what makes that figure leader price. Blitzwing's parts count and weight for the figure itself is probably between voyager and leader, with parts count being very close to a "normal" leader. There's no way not including the gloves makes him suddenly a voyager, as they only represent 4 parts. That's less than a Core class worth of parts, and they probably don't represent that much weight percentage either.

If I was rich, I'd start a youtube channel exclusively dedicated to weighting, taking apart, and counting the parts and plastic distribution of every figure that comes out. Given there's so much people (rightly) worried about what they're getting for their money, it seems like an endeavor that could gain a good bit of traction.

Rtron wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:

You're right, that's not how it works. And I thought I wrote it clearly enough in the article. It's the other way around. None of the engineering is diminished, it is instead improved by having a leader budget for a voyager sized toy. The gauntlets are just there to help sell the figure to people who need a visual aid to substantiate paying leader prices.

I'll allow that it 'works' in that it represents what Hasbro is actually DOING. But it doesn't 'work' for many of us in the sense that we're being asked to believe that figures like Blitzwing are 'improved' by mere reason of the inclusion of these gauntlet pieces.

I (for one) would rather have paid voyager price for Blitzwing, because based on the size and engineering, that seems to be all it's worth. In exchange for that, I would have been perfectly happy to live without the energon gauntlets. Instead, we have to pay leader price for a voyager figure (again) and have our intelligence insulted with the notion that the inclusion of these gauntlet weapons somehow makes Blitzwing worth the price of a Leader figure. The only way I could see myself using those silly things is if they could be fitted onto Mensaor's forearms somehow and become proper gloves. Don't see how that's possible though.

You don't lower Blitzwing to voyager price just by removing the gauntlets. I can't say I know how Hasbro specifically budgets, but my educated guess is that those gauntlets are not what makes that figure leader price. Blitzwing's parts count and weight for the figure itself is probably between voyager and leader, with parts count being very close to a "normal" leader. There's now way not including the gloves makes him suddenly a voyager, as they only represent 4 parts. That's less than a Core class worth of parts, and they probably don't represent that much weight percentage either.

I bolded and underlined the crucial part here. When figures in the end fall between two standard price points, Hasbro will always go for the higher one, but adding things to make it seem more worth while isn't necessarily a bad step to take even if it's to "cover up"
Hasbro's no stranger to that you know: when they imported Takara's Car Robots line for RiD 2001, Takara's liberal pricing made quite a few figures not fit with Hasbro's set price points, like Wedge and the Bullet Trains. Wedge was cheaper than Deluxe, but got bumped up to Deluxe anyway, and the trains got bumped to Mega.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Rtron wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:

You're right, that's not how it works. And I thought I wrote it clearly enough in the article. It's the other way around. None of the engineering is diminished, it is instead improved by having a leader budget for a voyager sized toy. The gauntlets are just there to help sell the figure to people who need a visual aid to substantiate paying leader prices.

I'll allow that it 'works' in that it represents what Hasbro is actually DOING. But it doesn't 'work' for many of us in the sense that we're being asked to believe that figures like Blitzwing are 'improved' by mere reason of the inclusion of these gauntlet pieces.

I (for one) would rather have paid voyager price for Blitzwing, because based on the size and engineering, that seems to be all it's worth. In exchange for that, I would have been perfectly happy to live without the energon gauntlets. Instead, we have to pay leader price for a voyager figure (again) and have our intelligence insulted with the notion that the inclusion of these gauntlet weapons somehow makes Blitzwing worth the price of a Leader figure. The only way I could see myself using those silly things is if they could be fitted onto Mensaor's forearms somehow and become proper gloves. Don't see how that's possible though.

You don't lower Blitzwing to voyager price just by removing the gauntlets. I can't say I know how Hasbro specifically budgets, but my educated guess is that those gauntlets are not what makes that figure leader price. Blitzwing's parts count and weight for the figure itself is probably between voyager and leader, with parts count being very close to a "normal" leader. There's now way not including the gloves makes him suddenly a voyager, as they only represent 4 parts. That's less than a Core class worth of parts, and they probably don't represent that much weight percentage either.

I bolded and underlined the crucial part here. When figures in the end fall between two standard price points, Hasbro will always go for the higher one, but adding things to make it seem more worth while isn't necessarily a bad step to take even if it's to "cover up"
Hasbro's no stranger to that you know: when they imported Takara's Car Robots line for RiD 2001, Takara's liberal pricing made quite a few figures not fit with Hasbro's set price points, like Wedge and the Bullet Trains. Wedge was cheaper than Deluxe, but got bumped up to Deluxe anyway, and the trains got bumped to Mega.

Exactly, otherwise, they'd be losing money on the figure. In this case, they'd be losing money on one of the most expensive figures of the "normal" classes. Could Hasbro tank that money loss? I have no idea, but that's not how ANY business works, specially not corporations. They're not going to lose even a single usd per figure just because the design fell in-between classes.

Rtron wrote:

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Rtron wrote:

DeathReviews wrote:

You're right, that's not how it works. And I thought I wrote it clearly enough in the article. It's the other way around. None of the engineering is diminished, it is instead improved by having a leader budget for a voyager sized toy. The gauntlets are just there to help sell the figure to people who need a visual aid to substantiate paying leader prices.

I'll allow that it 'works' in that it represents what Hasbro is actually DOING. But it doesn't 'work' for many of us in the sense that we're being asked to believe that figures like Blitzwing are 'improved' by mere reason of the inclusion of these gauntlet pieces.

I (for one) would rather have paid voyager price for Blitzwing, because based on the size and engineering, that seems to be all it's worth. In exchange for that, I would have been perfectly happy to live without the energon gauntlets. Instead, we have to pay leader price for a voyager figure (again) and have our intelligence insulted with the notion that the inclusion of these gauntlet weapons somehow makes Blitzwing worth the price of a Leader figure. The only way I could see myself using those silly things is if they could be fitted onto Mensaor's forearms somehow and become proper gloves. Don't see how that's possible though.

You don't lower Blitzwing to voyager price just by removing the gauntlets. I can't say I know how Hasbro specifically budgets, but my educated guess is that those gauntlets are not what makes that figure leader price. Blitzwing's parts count and weight for the figure itself is probably between voyager and leader, with parts count being very close to a "normal" leader. There's now way not including the gloves makes him suddenly a voyager, as they only represent 4 parts. That's less than a Core class worth of parts, and they probably don't represent that much weight percentage either.

I bolded and underlined the crucial part here. When figures in the end fall between two standard price points, Hasbro will always go for the higher one, but adding things to make it seem more worth while isn't necessarily a bad step to take even if it's to "cover up"
Hasbro's no stranger to that you know: when they imported Takara's Car Robots line for RiD 2001, Takara's liberal pricing made quite a few figures not fit with Hasbro's set price points, like Wedge and the Bullet Trains. Wedge was cheaper than Deluxe, but got bumped up to Deluxe anyway, and the trains got bumped to Mega.

Exactly, otherwise, they'd be losing money on the figure. In this case, they'd be losing money on one of the most expensive figures of the "normal" classes. Could Hasbro tank that money loss? I have no idea, but that's not how ANY business works, specially not corporations. They're not going to lose even a single usd per figure just because the design fell in-between classes.

Worth noting is that this phenomenon only props up because of their focus on accurate robot mode cartoon scale: as the characters are different heights, their figures end up in different sizes that may or not coincide with any set price points. If you look at other lines, you may find that they are sized to price point, but not current (WFC and later) Generations.

Till-all-R1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Yeah, aside from Blitzing's silly gloves, the gimmick isn't an intrusive one. It may dip into the plastic budget, but aside from that the toys don't have to be engineered around them like Mini-Cons or combining does.

Seems this "gimmick" was designed for Legacy Line so I can assume that an obligator reissue/repaint of Blitzwing is going to happen with normal hands within the next two years. lol

Blitzwing has normal hands, the gauntlets are accessories that you don't need to display with Blitzy if you don't want.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:
Worth noting is that this phenomenon only props up because of their focus on accurate robot mode cartoon scale: as the characters are different heights, their figures end up in different sizes that may or not coincide with any set price points. If you look at other lines, you may find that they are sized to price point, but not current (WFC and later) Generations.

Yeah, and some lines, like Animated, seemed to be scaled to vehicle mode volume. Maybe due to the toys being packaged in alt mode? Thus giving us things like tiny Lugnut and tall as hell Lockdown.

You don't lower Blitzwing to voyager price just by removing the gauntlets. I can't say I know how Hasbro specifically budgets, but my educated guess is that those gauntlets are not what makes that figure leader price. Blitzwing's parts count and weight for the figure itself is probably between voyager and leader, with parts count being very close to a "normal" leader. There's no way not including the gloves makes him suddenly a voyager, as they only represent 4 parts. That's less than a Core class worth of parts, and they probably don't represent that much weight percentage either.

I'll allow there's a certain degree of subjectivity in how a buyer deems what a figure is 'worth'. I don't know about the parts count or any of that other minutae. I'm sure if you took the thing completely apart and weighed everything in a set of micro-gram scales, it may well be that the figure (all by itself with NO accessories) is in fact more complicated/intricate than a normal voyager.

But they say the first bite is with the eye. And again, based on the early video reviews, Blitzwing doesn't seem any more complicated or better than, say, Jhiaxus or Bulkhead. In terms of subjectivity, I'm holding Blitzwing to a higher standard perhaps. They're making it leader price, so I expected them to do better. Some pretty big flaws have been pointed out for both of the alt modes, for example. Some would say that Jhiaxus is actually the better figure since the overall engineering seems more solid.

If I was rich, I'd start a youtube channel exclusively dedicated to weighting, taking apart, and counting the parts and plastic distribution of every figure that comes out. Given there's so much people (rightly) worried about what they're getting for their money, it seems like an endeavor that could gain a good bit of traction.

I'm sure there's an audience for that!

Ooh, Minerva looks great, the alt mode looks way more cohesive in medic livery as opposed to 3-4 different shades of pink/red. Kinda surprised to see she has 1 painted gun and then 1 clear gun, I guess that means she needed less paint than Elita? Being a Headmaster isn't something I actually care about, that gimmick was always something I kinda just tolerated/ignored, so I have no strong feelings about that not being the case here. Hopefully Pulse gets a good amount of stock for her, I recall Red Alert being in stock more than once so here's hoping that's the case again.

Also I'm just now seeing/realizing that Elita ends up with her faux head part on her ass in bot mode, there's many jokes to be had here

Rtron wrote:If I was rich, I'd start a youtube channel exclusively dedicated to weighting, taking apart, and counting the parts and plastic distribution of every figure that comes out. Given there's so much people (rightly) worried about what they're getting for their money, it seems like an endeavor that could gain a good bit of traction.

I actually tried to do something like that a while ago by counting all the parts of a bunch of TFs to compare them across toylines. I'm unfortunately not rich, and the project kinda sputtered out since I don't have many Prime Wars figures (which is what most people would probably want to compare WFC figures to). I did find out some interesting stuff though, and I'd be glad to continue the project if people are interested (and especially if people wanted to help).

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Rtron wrote:

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Rtron wrote:You don't lower Blitzwing to voyager price just by removing the gauntlets. I can't say I know how Hasbro specifically budgets, but my educated guess is that those gauntlets are not what makes that figure leader price. Blitzwing's parts count and weight for the figure itself is probably between voyager and leader, with parts count being very close to a "normal" leader. There's now way not including the gloves makes him suddenly a voyager, as they only represent 4 parts. That's less than a Core class worth of parts, and they probably don't represent that much weight percentage either.

I bolded and underlined the crucial part here. When figures in the end fall between two standard price points, Hasbro will always go for the higher one, but adding things to make it seem more worth while isn't necessarily a bad step to take even if it's to "cover up"
Hasbro's no stranger to that you know: when they imported Takara's Car Robots line for RiD 2001, Takara's liberal pricing made quite a few figures not fit with Hasbro's set price points, like Wedge and the Bullet Trains. Wedge was cheaper than Deluxe, but got bumped up to Deluxe anyway, and the trains got bumped to Mega.

Exactly, otherwise, they'd be losing money on the figure. In this case, they'd be losing money on one of the most expensive figures of the "normal" classes. Could Hasbro tank that money loss? I have no idea, but that's not how ANY business works, specially not corporations. They're not going to lose even a single usd per figure just because the design fell in-between classes.

Worth noting is that this phenomenon only props up because of their focus on accurate robot mode cartoon scale: as the characters are different heights, their figures end up in different sizes that may or not coincide with any set price points. If you look at other lines, you may find that they are sized to price point, but not current (WFC and later) Generations.

A bit of a tangent, but I do worry that the "in between classes" figures are going to end up lowering fan's standards over time. At what point will the not-quite-a-class figure just become accepted as the standard for that class? When ER Cliff and Netflix Bee came out, people complained about their size, but eventually warmed up to them because they felt complex, weren't hollow, were slathered with paint, and had a ton of accessories. Then Huffer comes along, who's simple, has very hollow legs, and has an average amount paint and accessories, but nobody batted and eye. Bee and Cliff were worth deluxe money, so obviously Huffer is too, right? Classes are just price points now, after all. I don't know if an overall lowering of standards will ever really happen, but it's food for thought.

Also, a tad off topic, but there are some businesses/corporations that willingly sell certain products for a loss, usually in order to encourage more sales of other products with higher profit margins. A good example are Sony and Microsoft with the PS5 and Series X, which are sold at a loss to make the consoles more competitively priced and affordable, which in turn encourages more people to buy more games (which is where the real money is made). Not really applicable to transformers of course.

Tuned Agent wrote:A bit of a tangent, but I do worry that the "in between classes" figures are going to end up lowering fan's standards over time. At what point will the not-quite-a-class figure just become accepted as the standard for that class? When ER Cliff and Netflix Bee came out, people complained about their size, but eventually warmed up to them because they felt complex, weren't hollow, were slathered with paint, and had a ton of accessories. Then Huffer comes along, who's simple, has very hollow legs, and has an average amount paint and accessories, but nobody batted and eye. Bee and Cliff were worth deluxe money, so obviously Huffer is too, right? Classes are just price points now, after all. I don't know if an overall lowering of standards will ever really happen, but it's food for thought.

Like the "It's what it is" complacent attitude? Maybe, but there will be always be people who want more and they will eventually be vocal about it when push comes to shove. That's why we have reviewers And in my experience, people who shout the loudest get the most followers, though that's not always a good thing generally speaking...

Also, a tad off topic, but there are some businesses/corporations that willingly sell certain products for a loss, usually in order to encourage more sales of other products with higher profit margins. A good example are Sony and Microsoft with the PS5 and Series X, which are sold at a loss to make the consoles more competitively priced and affordable, which in turn encourages more people to buy more games (which is where the real money is made). Not really applicable to transformers of course.

Like sacrificial lambs? I don't see Hasbro or TakaraTomy doing that main line figures plus exclusives, but TakaraTomy has more experience with promotional giveaways (granted, those are big in Japan) and Hasbro has given away samples of finished first wave product to reviewers now and again.

Operating at a loss for a while, because they know they'll recoup it. That would not be the case with how Hasbro operates, it would probably just be money lost and that's it.

I would like to see that sort of project, but I wouldn't be able to contribute as I live on the arse end of the world relative to most of the people on this site, or really the fandom at large

ZeroWolf wrote:

Till-all-R1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:Yeah, aside from Blitzing's silly gloves, the gimmick isn't an intrusive one. It may dip into the plastic budget, but aside from that the toys don't have to be engineered around them like Mini-Cons or combining does.

Seems this "gimmick" was designed for Legacy Line so I can assume that an obligator reissue/repaint of Blitzwing is going to happen with normal hands within the next two years. lol

Blitzwing has normal hands, the gauntlets are accessories that you don't need to display with Blitzy if you don't want.

Okay thanks, I haven't paid much attention to that conversation but when I heard about this I was a bit concerned because I do recall seeing normal hands on the bot.

After hearing of someone finding it I'm now in excitation mode, unfortunately all I saw today at Walmart was waves with Kickback and Skids. G2 Optimus and BB Soundwave.

From the same people that tried to make non-Headmaster TF characters in Titans Return into Headmasters, comes a Headmaster character that isn't a Headmaster.

As for Sh*tswing's gauntlets; they're talking out of their @rses. They could have EASILY added covers for the tank to cover the gap at the front and/or part of the awful faux cockpit. It could easily be used as a shield too. Then, add some wing extenders, or even, just better engineering and more plastic to make a half-decent figure.

Money saved, Hasblo, do better.

primalxconvoy wrote:From the same people that tried to make non-Headmaster TF characters in Titans Return into Headmasters, comes a Headmaster character that isn't a Headmaster.

As for Sh*tswing's gauntlets; they're talking out of their @rses. They could have EASILY added covers for the tank to cover the gap at the front and/or part of the awful faux cockpit. It could easily be used as a shield too. Then, add some wing extenders, or even, just better engineering and more plastic to make a half-decent figure.

Money saved, Hasblo, do better.

As pointed out further up, Minerva isn't a headmaster in Victory nor in the recent comics.

Also that gap in Blitzwing is cartoon accurate, which is sadly what they were going for. Plus as stated, the weapons fit the gimmick which has been present throughout, a rather fun gimmick at that. If you want a better Blitzy, I'm sure hasbro will try again in a few years or so

ZeroWolf wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:From the same people that tried to make non-Headmaster TF characters in Titans Return into Headmasters, comes a Headmaster character that isn't a Headmaster.

As for Sh*tswing's gauntlets; they're talking out of their @rses. They could have EASILY added covers for the tank to cover the gap at the front and/or part of the awful faux cockpit. It could easily be used as a shield too. Then, add some wing extenders, or even, just better engineering and more plastic to make a half-decent figure.

Money saved, Hasblo, do better.

As pointed out further up, Minerva isn't a headmaster in Victory nor in the recent comics.

That's not relevant as she WAS a Headmaster in Super God Masterforce and the original toy was also a Headmaster. My point stands.

Also that gap in Blitzwing is cartoon accurate, which is sadly what they were going for. Plus as stated, the weapons fit the gimmick which has been present throughout, a rather fun gimmick at that. If you want a better Blitzy, I'm sure hasbro will try again in a few years or so

The gauntlets and jet modes are NOT cartoon accurate though. The extra plastic could just has easily been used for an optional cover, just as it was used as optional junk that probably a very small amount of collectors will even bother taking out of the box.

However, the reason I'm not bothering with both of these failures is because there will almost certainly be new, better versions out in the near future. Just look at how many Arcees came out in the span of just a few years as an example, so in that I agree with you.

For me, Minerva is a headmaster first and foremost. As I see in the transformation video, there's enough room inside the car "cockpit" to slap a car seat on Minerva's butt for a standard headmaster to sit in.

So even if the total cost end up being double the price of the OG figure, I'm pretty sure that someone will make an upgrade kit to go convert her into a proper headmaster.
Then, Reprolabels to complete her looks. Especially for the infamous Red Cross symbols.